Closed loop system

[Doug Dahlke]

I checked the archives and found a little info but would like some more. Anyone running a closed loop system that would be willing to share some insight? I have a vacuum but no OWS. Have looked at a few units and like the Water Treatment Tech, the Western Water products look good too. My concerns are dealing with sediment in the reclaimed water and what chemical use would do to the pump. If degreasers are used can you still dispose to a sanitary sewer? Any help would be appreciated.

[Mountain View]

I spent a couple of years selling and managing a distributorship for this type of equipment. You basically have two options; treat and discharge or treat and reuse. The closed loop you talk about is the treat and reuse type. It can get pretty long winded to write everything down. In a nutshell, I personally would go for the treat and discharge if I could. Essentially you are cleaning up the water enough to go down a storm sewer. Most manufacturers have data sheets about what level of filtration the units will provide. In addition to this your local authority can tell you what their standards are.

Call me anytime and I can give you much more info. (817) 372-3743

[Doug T]

My understanding is even with the "treat and reuse" systems they will not remove the chemicals, so depending on what you are washing you still need fresh water to rinse.

[Integrity.PSI]

Even if you clean the water you still cannot send it down a storm drain. You can typically discharge to sanitary without any cleaning.

[big mike]

Doug,
Good questions for sure. I have a closed loop system (sirrocco vac, Water Treatment Tech OWS, and tank), but I tend to use the system mostly as a filter and discharge system. I find that unless I'm doing a very large surface like a parking ramp or something similar in size, I just can't recover enough water to actually reuse. My system is set up to send filtered water to either a 100 gal tank, or a 525 gal tank. The 525 is my supply tank, and I've only had to direct filtered water to the big tank for reuse twice in 2 years. Generally, with evaporation & blow off I'm recovering about 20% of my total water, if that. I would rather collect and discharge several times in the smaller tank, versus running recovered water through my equipment if possible.
As for chems, they are not filtered out but with the water volume used they are generally diluted to a degree that is safe to send to the sanitary sewer or landscape discharge. You should really get a sample of your recovered water and have it tested. We use the same product on all of our concrete cleaning (Power Stroke, Envirospec) and we downstream. But we only use the chems on drive thru's and areas that show oil. Hot water will clean just about everything else, so take it easy on the chems and you should be OK. Don't make recovery too hard (operation overthink). I wrestled with the same issues before purchasing my recovery equipment. Truth be told, I mainly try to filter out the hyrocarbons (oil, gas, etc.) before discharge. I can accomplish that by using drain covers, oil only socks, and a sump pump.
As for the chems harming the equipment, I haven't seen any damage yet, and I feel that this is a result of the chems being so diluted by the time they reach the recovery equipment. Hope this helps.

[Neil_Asheville]

MIke, thank you for posting. That's some solid info.

/neil

[Doug Dahlke]

Thanks Mike and others who have posted. My main reason for asking about a closed loop is the drought here. I thought by recylcing water maybe I could get some relief from the water restrictions. From what I am reading and hearing from suppliers I won't recover much water even with a vacuum surface cleaner. Great if I just need EPA cpmpliance by discharge to sanitary, bad if I want to convince water authorities to let me keep operating.

[One Tough Pressure]

Originally Posted by Doug Dahlke

From what I am reading and hearing from suppliers I won't recover much water even with a vacuum surface cleaner.

Whoever told you that is lying. A vacuum surfacer will recover a very signifigant amount of water. If the surface is slightly damp when done, where do they think the water has gone.

Recovery by means of a sump pump or vacu boom type set up will yield less water, but if set up closer to your cleaning area, vs across the parking lot, it too will yield a decent amount.

I am not to familiar with this drought deal, but even with a closed loop system, they may not be to keen on it for the simple fact that you are still using water, and water usage is there main concern.
Now if they limit what you can use and you were to recycle to keep working with your slotted amount, then that would be ideal.

As far as recovering enough water to use again, recovery is a way to keep it out of the drains and reusing it does just that. To account for evcaporation and saturation, a fresh feed to supplement the recovered water is needed. Closed loop means no discharge, not that you can not have a fresh feed.

[alvisishere]

Originally Posted by Doug Dahlke

Thanks Mike and others who have posted. My main reason for asking about a closed loop is the drought here. I thought by recylcing water maybe I could get some relief from the water restrictions. From what I am reading and hearing from suppliers I won't recover much water even with a vacuum surface cleaner. Great if I just need EPA cpmpliance by discharge to sanitary, bad if I want to convince water authorities to let me keep operating.

Doug
I'm in Conyers, have the said that you can't PW there?
I have heard rumors that in some places we can't wash at all, and then someone else says we can...seems like they don't want to give us a straight answer.
I am switching gears and heading more on the commercial side...res. is not happening right now..even though we can wash, most homeowners are conserving water.

[Scott Stone]

What Alan said. I have a closed loop system and with a 525 gallon tank and to 5 gpm machines running, I can go most of the night. They biggest hassle is the sediment and how do you get rid of it. The filters are easy, dry them and toss them.

[Doug Dahlke]

Al. You're best bet is to call whatever county you plan to work in and ask what the current restrictions are. Each county can set it's own restrictions beyond what the state has imposed. Don't trust the info on the county websites as they may not be updated with the latest information. Talk to the local water department.

Scott and Alan. What % of your water do you think you pick up with a vacuuming surface celaner? One county that banned outdoor water use allowed car washes that recycle their water to continue operating for now. One owner they interviewed said he reused 90% of his water.

[Scott Stone]

At least 90%. In reality more, as long as everything is operating properly. Out of a 525 gallon tank, and working for a solid hour yesterday morning, I may have lost 10 gallons out of the surface cleaner. Less than 50 gallons after I washed down an area that the surface cleaner would not fit in. What will kill you is when you have to take gum off the surface. Your water usage will go way up then.

[One Tough Pressure]

The recovery rate is very good. Steel eagle advertises 98% and I would bet it is close to that. I have two 230 gallon tanks and if I run off one and recover to the other, I end up with almost a full tank.
The gum recovery tool is a good water saving device, but does add more sediment to the tank.

Scott,
Do you blow down the area prior to washing? It really helps with sediment and eliminating the items that are to big to be sucked up.

[pressure clean australia]

howdy all
intresting topic , sounds like you blokes have the same drama that we have down here . i run our operation on a recovery and reuse basis , our water is critical at the moment with some aeras shuting down all new construction works and some towns even having to truck in water to drink .
i live north of brisbane , queensland . our aera does not allowe you to wash your car only your windscreen and head lights . thats dry so it is a nightmare for our industry. there is many factors to take into consideration in capturing and reuse of what we discribe as such a valuable resource ,[ by the way we are only allowed to use 140 ltrs a day for our house hold use per person thats 30 gal. for washing , laundry , cooking etc] at this point we have only 2 de-sal plants and NO recycling of efluiants [coming soon] in operation yet the govt. tells us we must clean up our act . go figure .
any way there are ways of makink this work an without laying to much out there at this stage . we found we get very good recovery even to the point that when we do have rain we harvest this out of the storm water system , treat and use on our contracts . a combination of filters , oil and dirt seperation , uv light , charcol treatment , reverse osmosis can be applied very sucussfully . and in most cases be good enough to be able to be used over and over again , yes we do have loss evaperation , atomization , and a general usage loss, how much do we recover and re use ? our tests have showed that in general use and loose way you can expect to loose 5 lts to clean 1 sq. meter or 1 gal per 10 sq. feet ? [feed back required ] our tests over a morning showed that we acheived [clean and capture and reuse ] that we , taking all things into account that a figure of 1.5 ltrs. for 1 sq. meter or i think 1 third of a gal. to clean 10 sq feet . any way there is food for thought [ be great to get feed back re. my comments regards graham dean in oz-land ] ps great day to day its raining , half an inch so far

[Tmrrptr]

Thats really interesting Graham.
...30gals per day for household use? Thats tough...

Would you please turn off your RED font color?
Really interested in what you have to say, but hard to read it.
r