To Tattle or Not to Tattle

[StainlessDeal]

If you see your competition doing a job you have bid on, and they are breaking the CWA (or other guidelines), and you suspect they got the job because they could cheaply underbid without reclaim, permits etc., do you alert the authorities?

Tell us why or why not below, please.

For the obvious reasons, I think we should answer in the hypothetical sense, but feel free not to as you wish.

A certain vindictive part of me says to go for it, but another part says that it might be better not to get local regulators excited about easy fines to collect.

I'm on the fence right now, talk me down.

[Jeff]

I worry about my own business, not the compititions. I watch & listen & see what my compitition is up to, but I wouldnt bother turning someone in.

Like you said if you call on him it might bring a look at what your doing and they always can fnd something wrong with what your doing if they want

[Jon]

Put it this way, alerting the company to what it would COST them if caught should take care of it. They pay a much heftier fine then the PWer.

Or you could MYOB

OR you could call the water cops but you need to have proof, pictures, time of night and exact location etc.

Or you could take pictures and mail them to the competitor and say next time I see you doing this you get turned in but don't say who you are.

OR

You could MYOB.

Would I turn one in, no because to do so invites trouble in the same way you caused it, he is going to catch you doing something wrong and turn you in.

Remember the saying: What goes around comes around.

[CarolinaProWash]

This one should get some BVD's in a wad! Maybe you should not be talked down. The lack of professionalism in this industry is what hurts all of us.

In an ideal world, enforcement of the CWA should be something that anyone who calls themselves a professional in this industry should not want or need to avoid and violators should be reported. The impact on the environment should be an enormous concern, particularly since this industry can actually do something about our portion.

We all have reactions when we hear about stories like the Exxon Valdeze and see pictures of the oil slicks - I realize on an immediate damage scale, this is apples & oranges, but it is somewhat similar in that it is a detriment to our environment and if you were to add together all of the ick that 10,000 powerwashers that don't divert or reclaim in a year, it's likely to reach the same pollution proportions that that oil spill caused.

Personal opinion, which may get me whacked - I think violaters should get reported. We do not reclaim but our water doesn't hit storm drains either. We have plans in place to divert should the need arise, heck, we have huge shop vacs and spare tanks if we had to throw something together in order to be in compliance. It's just like being licensed or insured - it's a part of doing this business. If one wants to be a professional - just do what's right. As for it being "wise".....if you were found out to be the tattle tale, well, people who don't care about the laws probably wouldn't think twice about harming you back.

Here's the sad part.....the authorities who enforce are not doing their job. We HAVE called to report an offense (not a local competitor just for the record) - we got blown off. There's no one in our area that gives a rat's patoot so it makes it very easy for those non-compliant low ballers or corporate "get the employee to do it" type to get away with what they do.

Whew...sorry about that

Celeste

[Jon]

Celeste says

Here's the sad part.....the authorities who enforce are not doing their job. We HAVE called to report an offense (not a local competitor just for the record) - we got blown off. There's no one in our area that gives a rat's patoot so it makes it very easy for those non-compliant low ballers or corporate "get the employee to do it" type to get away with what they do.

Sad but true, all they really care about is getting you licensed which brings money to the city/county/state coffers.

I have been told they know exactly where to find us yet that is pure bunk, they have no idea since they are all home in bed when a lot of us are out working all night long.

Do they care, sure but the pressure to enforce has to come from higher up, someone not on the under the table payroll.

Sad but true what Celeste says indeed.

Just remember if you do the right thing and you know you are doing it legally you have nothing to worry about and everything to be proud of, break the law and you will someday, someplace in some city that truly does enforce the CWA laws they will catch you.

[John T.]

Originally Posted by Jon

Just remember if you do the right thing and you know you are doing it legally you have nothing to worry about and everything to be proud of, break the law and you will someday, someplace in some city that truly does enforce the CWA laws they will catch you.

Jon has spoken..He's been around and my answer would be similiar to his..If your a piece of crap then eventually your misdeads will catch up with you..But I will add if you think you should report this then go ahead..someone has to do it and sooner or later you have to believe that the bad guys will pay..

[Beth n Rod]

For consideration.
Doing hoods and getting in touch with the AHJ's here in Maryland taught us that most AHJ's do not have the manpower to enforce the laws and regulations and I was told specifically that they inadvertently relied upon the contractors who cleaned hoods to help keep the restaurant owners in line and up to date. He told me that depending upon my tactics, I could legally use any deficiencies that I find upon inspection as a leverage tool to get the business by telling them I am under obligation to turn the deficiency report in to the local AHJ if they don't get the work done! No lie.
Now keep in mind I don't approve of or employ these kinds of pressure tactics but wanted to post this as an example. We can police ourselves and keep the local AHJ's off our backs or we can let others go about breaking the laws that we all must abide by and wait for legislation to come down the pike inhibiting our ability to do business. Ignorance or responsibility? Which is bliss?
Yeah, what comes around goes around but doesn't that also apply in the scope of things where legislators are concerned? You better believe it does. If we turn a blind eye and allow others to operate in any unlawful manner we are in the public eyes effectively condoning this practice and therefor establishing the stigma that ALL contractors do this and inadvertently giving the legislators fuel for the laws they shall impose upon our businesses.
Yeah, we all have our opinions on this one and many would choose to mind their own business and claim they have no right to tell anyone else how to run their business as they would not allow anyone to tell them how to run theirs. But if the legislators come out with new laws restricting our business as a result of this mindset, isn't that tempting fate to allow someone else to interfere with our business because of our ignorance?
I for one do not like the thought of any further government impositions and choose to be vigilant. If I as a business owner take responsibility to let other pw'ers know they are breaking the law and educate them...whether they comply or not...I have done my part by letting them know...someone is watching and it is better that it is by a peer than someone who could shut them down and create enough of a stink that would draw attention to this kind of practice and create laws that can cripple many of our businesses.
No, I am not paranoid, I am informed. And whats more important, in my life I have learned the lessons of ignorance and know all to well what it costs.

Rod!~

[bforbis]

I am personally in a moral and ethical delima on this subject and as a relatively new PWer market. I have equipment set up to reclaim and filter and it was not inexpensive as many of you know.
Although many talk of diversion, damming etc to keep chemicals and waste water out of the storm drains, realistically, it will rain and wash into the drains.
We all have to balance costs of performing a job with customer expectations, price paid, EPA expectations and a dose of reality. Not to mention, what it takes to set up equipment in the right location to capture, filter or relocate to sanitary sewer, You have to protect that equipment from damage with people driving over it.
Almost every time I set up and use cones to divert traffic someone drive through them or at least tries to and over my equipment! I am not sure how many 1000's I've spent replacing/repairing b/c some @#@#$%^&*( didn't realize what the BIG ORANGE CONES were for.

I am not an advocate for calling the water cops. I know and realize they are too few to enforce and eventually the day will come. I am concerned about water run off with respect to CWA and continuosly seek to improve my methods.

Someone once talked of nationwide certification, which is more regulation, but may help keep everyone on the same cost structure for pricing jobs. I currently see that many do not reclaim (at least in this area) unless they have to as prescribed by customer (IE: fleet washing).
I feel I need help and the PW industry needs help to maintain a level field for us to do business within. If someone is allowed to price without reclaim, while others are priced with reclaim and the consumer paying for the work is not held accountable in the process, where do you think he is going to choose to do business with?

I feel I need some direction on this path.

[Beth n Rod]

I feel I need help and the PW industry needs help to maintain a level field for us to do business within. If someone is allowed to price without reclaim, while others are priced with reclaim and the consumer paying for the work is not held accountable in the process, where do you think he is going to choose to do business with?

I feel I need some direction on this path.

Actually, the customer is accountable as well. The CWA includes the owner of the property in which the work is performed to ensure that the waste is properly disposed of.

http://www.epa.gov/r5water/cwa.htm
http://www.epa.gov/region5/water/pdf/ecwa_t3.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/region5/water/pdf/ecwa_t3.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/region5/water/pdf/ecwa_t5.pdf

There is a bit of reading but the answers are better found this way.

Rod!~

[Jon]

Sad but true even if you only use cold water it must be recaptured or diverted, many seem to think only HOT water requires recapture as it loosens the grease and other things they speak of.

Costco gas stations have oil/water seperators yet they required me to use my own system and not allow any water down theirs, go figure that one out.

I had a few car dealerships that had oil/water seperators and they allowed me to let the water go down there since it was their stuff I was cleaning. Made the job go faster yet still took half the night.

Don't get me wrong here but what Beth said about policing ourself or face stricter regulations is true and going to happen at some point.

To many pressure washers have some sort of equipment to "prove" to the customer they recapture yet DO NOT DO IT. Before you say NOT ME go look in the mirror and ask yourself do you truly set up at every job and pick up the water?

When oil/water equipment first came out it cost a fortune compared to today where you can buy a full unit for around $1000, I spent 3 times that just for the generator to run everything needed, vacuum, oil/water seperator and all other stuff.

The industry needs to become stronger, that was/IS one of the reasons for PWNA and it is sad most PWers are so against it when it could improve the industry as a whole and rid some of those that care less about rules/laws and only about cutting price for the almighty buck.

Even my business today, book selling has its lowballers, those that sell books for penny that I pay say $3.00 for, how can I compete against them, I DON'T, I set a fair price and that's it. Not going into a long talk about the book business here, point is every industry has it's good and bad and I don't compete against the bad ones.

Who remembers a song called "I fought the law and the law won?" (ok some of you are to young to remember that song so go download it and listen to it!)

Happens every time so do the right thing and stand proud that you are doing it right.

[One Tough Pressure]

Just because someone is not recovering, does not mean that the water went where it was not supposed to.
They could be diverting it to another place, the water may never even reach the drain despite that they have many in the area.
Are you able to spot all the various types of recovery that someone may use? Just because you do not see what you might use, does not mean that they do not have any.
You may call and they may go out to investigate and see that their is no violation and then watch you to see what you do with water. they may go out and mention to the person who called and then it will be pay back time. There are a variety of situations that could happen.
My opinion is just deal with your own self and do what you feel is right for your own business. If you call it in, will you get the job back? Will it do any good for you? Will it make an example and steer more people to you?
Recovery has many faces and can be good and bad. If they already have equipment, they can charge less than the guy who bid more so that he can buy some for this job.
What do you expect to see when someone is recovering or redirecting water?

[bforbis]

Beth and Rod,
Thank you for the websites. I have been reading and researching those sites for a couple of weeks and trying to wade through the regulations etc for our area.
I don't necessarily worry about what the other guy does so much, b/c I know I have enough to deal with in my own court so to speak.I
Rod says:

f we turn a blind eye and allow others to operate in any unlawful manner we are in the public eyes effectively condoning this practice and therefor establishing the stigma that ALL contractors do this and inadvertently giving the legislators fuel for the laws they shall impose upon our businesses.

Perhaps with more research and understanding of the laws and expectations I will be better able to educate prospective and existing customers that they are to be held accountable as well.

[PowerWashofVa]

John T.
Haven't we heard this before! ....... " this is the first time I ever did this" Usually that's not the case. As far as the question, I feel first you warn (advise, educate) then make a decision on the proper action.

[StainlessDeal]

I am relatively new in this business, and there are some people here already doing it. That said, PWing as a profession is not well-known in Nebraska. There are some fleet washers, and one guy I know of (but not personally) that does wood, and then about ten thousand fools doing splash & dash jobs as a way to beer money. The most reputable guys I've seen are some window-washers and car-lot guys. (One of the largest car-lot guys told me that wood restoration was a perfect way to make nobody happy because the work is too expensive for the area to bear)

There is no awareness of regulations on the public's part, and some of the local business owners are amazingly high-strung about it. When my bids mention reclaim, they go ape in a hurry. I've let commercxial business pretty much slide because of this.

The camel-back breaking straw was a pair of bids I gave early this summer: On one the prospect became irate when I mentioned reclaim as part of the bid on acid washing aluminum trailers. The spot I was to use was on top of a storm-drain that was a 24 inch (or so) shotgun pipe a quarter mile long straight to a local lake used as a fishing/outdoor rec area.

I thanked the guy for his time and declined to bid.

The second was a chain battery store in town that had badly stained sidewalks and delivery areas. The parking spaces were slick with oil, and the dumpster pad/ loading area was rusty with battery acid. They had never heard of the CWA were pretty sure they weren't covered by it, and were shocked at my price. When I tried to explain the processes (already spelled out in my bid) the assistant manager ran me off, accusing me of trying to fleece and bully them.

I'm not angry, nor am I veangeful, but I do fish the local lakes, and my dog drinks from them all summer long. It seems that the point of the laws is to protect the water, not provide me with a service to sell at an outrageous price, and I'm irked that the water gets dirtied by people doing work incorrectly, that I bid right.

And Alan, I hear you, I may not know what remediation method they are using, but I don't suspect that two guys in a Gremlin with a Lowes' cold water unit and a visible twelve pack are using something planted inside the stormdrain their water is running into. lol I'd sooner believe they had Harry Potter down there doing his bit for the CWA.

I didn't turn anybody in, mostly because I strongly suspected I was the only pwer these folks had talked to. Why make a mess in my own nest? I just posed the question because I'm curious where the opinions would fall, and because after walking my hound at one of the lakes in question the other day I saw foam and open water in the otherwise frozen area where the pipe I mentioned before drains.

Frankly, I feel a bit guilty and ashamed. Did I do the wrong thing because it was easy? Or was I right to MMOB?

[Jon]

Scott want to really impress those business owners, copy the part of the CWA and print it and carry copies with you, hand it to them and educate them, sure they know about it but most will say exactly what the one guy said, it does not cover my business. That is pure hog water, it covers every business in every city in the USA.

The battery store owner knows the laws, he deals with acids and has laws other businesses don't have, I bet he has been written up before by the sounds of his property being what it is.

I bet other PWers have done just what you did, walked away without bidding and he is not happy about no one wanting to clean his pig pen up.

You did right by declining to bid.

Just do what you know and feel is right and don't worry about those splash and dash guys, they come and go as fast as ballons pop.