Ariz. starts its employer sanctions 'experiment'

[John Doherty]

Just wait and see these when these illegal folks start competing with us all directly as business owners.

I see it here already, no language barrier, a workforce that is more reliable and will outwork anyone you can find, even at the same hourly rate.

No bad attitudes either, we grew up with the 'one day you can be president' mentality, so most idiots we hire think they know more than they do, or have a better way to do things.

Not so with the illegal folks, they grew up with a 'you work and get paid and feed your family' attitude.

We don't need innovators, we need guys who will show up on time every day ready to work, not &itch and moan, and follow simple instructions.

We're going to have some real challenges ahead.

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Beth n Rod

What do you mean refusing to assimilate? (I hope I am not sorry I asked)

Beth

Beth I think the quotation by Theodore Roosevelt says it much better than I ever could.

Originally Posted by Theodore Roosevelt

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Edward

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Ron Musgraves

so we should stop feeding children? I live is this wonderful country my fathers discovered.

im happy to pay for kids, americans to get a better life and a chance to help there familys and ancestors a chance at democracy.

shame on the states that allow people to get children food and health care. be real,

ant. put yourself in there shoes once. talk to those friends of yours. because they like your grandfather wanted a better life for you, you have any compasion?

Ron
If you offer something for nothing don't be surprised if there is a huge line for that free something.
I remember the country our founding fathers created too and it was a country where the people worked to solve the problems their country faced. Now what we are doing is allowing illegals an easy way out. Instead of these hard working people staying in their own country and fixing the problems there like our founding fathers did here we allow them to abandon their own country for an easy way out. Our founding fathers sacrificed to create this country and what we have is because of them. Now instead of these hard working people staying in their country and working to solve the problems with their economies back home we allow them to break our laws and come here for the easy way out.

PS We can feed many more children if we teach them how to fish instead of providing free fish.


Edward

[John T.]

Man this Debate can go on forever. Look at our history. The white man fled England to come here and in doing so they slaughtered the native Americans(K they weren't called that back then) Some of Eds points above are contradicting because these white guys and gals decided to not try and change England because to them it wasn't worth it so they fled to here...Jump to today..Sounds a little to familiar except for the slaughtering part.

Personally IMHO we need to change some laws to protect this country and to take that a step further and this may make a few people unhappy but our Constitution as good as it is--its somewhat flawed. There needs to be amendments made there.

I truly believe no matter how you slice it and dice it every nationality thats here now there were a bunch of "Illegals" from each one that came in under the radar to reap the rewards that our great country has to offer.

Also from what I see most likely the richer the person is in this country the more likely somewhere they have some illegals working for them.. and if not there outsourcing alot of there Labor end of there businesses to other countries that practice slave labor.

All of these big mouth politicians on all sides are full of bull. I hope in my lifetime some middle class citizen rises up and becomes president!!

You want to solve alot of problems..start with the rich and most powerful here. Thats where 99% of our main problems start at.

Yes you can look at the illegals and gripe about it all day..But take your eyes off of them for a second and start looking at the top 1% of this country.. Start there and many of the Middle class and even the illegal alien problems will start to subside..

[Edward]

Originally Posted by John T.

Man this Debate can go on forever. Look at our history. The white man fled England to come here and in doing so they slaughtered the native Americans(K they weren't called that back then) Some of Eds points above are contradicting because these white guys and gals decided to not try and change England because to them it wasn't worth it so they fled to here...Jump to today..Sounds a little to familiar except for the slaughtering part.

But when they got here there the indigenous people weren't handing out food stamps and free medical care. The point I am making is that what this country is comes down to the hard work and sacrifice of those who stayed here to make it what it is. Our founding fathers could have run back to England where a country was already established but instead chose to stay here and create this county that we now enjoy. Nothing contradictory about that.

Originally Posted by John T.

You want to solve alot of problems..start with the rich and most powerful here. Thats where 99% of our main problems start at.

Yes you can look at the illegals and gripe about it all day..But take your eyes off of them for a second and start looking at the top 1% of this country.. Start there and many of the Middle class and even the illegal alien problems will start to subside ..

People talk about the rich but no one ever defines it. How much money do you have to make before you are "rich"? The top one percent you talk about pays 39% of all the taxes. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of the tax burden. Now some people may want to bash these people but since they are paying such a disproportional share of our tax burden I believe I will let them off the hook. It makes no sense to me to bash someone who is being productive enough to subsidize the remaining 75% of the income earners leaving them with just 14% of the burden to pay.

Edward

[Ron Musgraves]

But when they got here there the indigenous people weren't handing out food stamps and free medical care. The point I am making is that what this country is comes down to the hard work and sacrifice of those who stayed here to make it what it is. Our founding fathers could have run back to England where a country was already established but instead chose to stay here and create this county that we now enjoy. Nothing contradictory about that.

Shame on us for handing out free stuff and not expecting hungry needy people to take advantage of it.

[John T.]

Originally Posted by Edward

People talk about the rich but no one ever defines it. How much money do you have to make before you are "rich"? The top one percent you talk about pays 39% of all the taxes. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of the tax burden. Now some people may want to bash these people but since they are paying such a disproportional share of our tax burden I believe I will let them off the hook. It makes no sense to me to bash someone who is being productive enough to subsidize the remaining 75% of the income earners leaving them with just 14% of the burden to pay.

Edward

either your misread or your misspoken. Leona Helmsly who was married to the owner of a huge NY City Real estate company who also owned the Empire State Building let the cat out of the bag by saying only the little people pay the taxes. She was right on but being the ***** that she was she gets her butt kicked into jail.

The rich have so many tax shelters your head would spin. They also don't pay the same proportionate of the penalty and fines that the middle class do. Case in point is Michael Milken who was the Junk Bond King and who stole around 4 billion from many senior citizens retirements. His fine was around 500,000,000 or maybe even less at a 100,000,000. Either way he stole Billions and only did a couple of years at a country club resort.

I deal with the reach and they brag how they know how to move there Millions by either taking Tax write offs or investing back into theres and other companies to avoid paying the tax man.

You are being snowballed in thinking that the rich are paying most of the taxes. The middle class alone by far is paying most of the taxes. And to be clear hear I'm talking about the rich and powerful and not the typical Millionaire. Where talking Multi Multi Millionaires. Where talking about people Like John Kerry who didn't want his wife;s taxes be exposed because she hardly paid her fair share. Where talking the shock Jock Howard Stern who was one time going to run for the NY governor position which he was immediately silenced when he was told he would have to show his tax statements if he wanted to keep running which he immediately refused to do and his political run came to an end that day.

Its the Middle class which is forever getting there chained chocked around. Where the ones getting screwed. When I was a NYPD it was a given to know that if you write a middle class person a ticket they were going to most likely pay it and in turn it raised more Revenue for the city where the poor would most likely not pay it and the rich would not only not pay it they would send in there high power attorneys to waste more city time so they actually cost the city money.

IMHO Ed you have it wrong.

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Ron Musgraves

Shame on us for handing out free stuff and not expecting hungry needy people to take advantage of it.

Exactly!
Shame on us for creating a class of government dependent people. As long as you can get it for free here why fix the problems back home in your own country.

Ron how many people starve to death each year in Latin American countries? You make it sound like if we don't feed them they will starve to death in a month. I believe that to be an exaggeration of the conditions these people face in order to gain sympathy for your position. When I checked the stats on hunger in South America they came out moderately low or extremely low. The world hunger problem: Countries affected by hunger
I wonder what the hunger rating for our founding fathers would have been while they struggled to fix the problems facing this country? Again who will solve the problems in south America if their hard working people leave? I think we are doing those countries a disservice by depleting these countries of hard working people that could make a difference back home.

Edward

[Edward]

Originally Posted by John T.

You are being snowballed in thinking that the rich are paying most of the taxes. The middle class alone by far is paying most of the taxes. And to be clear hear I'm talking about the rich and powerful and not the typical Millionaire. Where talking Multi Multi Millionaires. Where talking about people Like John Kerry who didn't want his wife;s taxes be exposed because she hardly paid her fair share. Where talking the shock Jock Howard Stern who was one time going to run for the NY governor position which he was immediately silenced when he was told he would have to show his tax statements if he wanted to keep running which he immediately refused to do and his political run came to an end that day.

Its the Middle class which is forever getting there chained chocked around. Where the ones getting screwed. When I was a NYPD it was a given to know that if you write a middle class person a ticket they were going to most likely pay it and in turn it raised more Revenue for the city where the poor would most likely not pay it and the rich would not only not pay it they would send in there high power attorneys to waste more city time so they actually cost the city money.

IMHO Ed you have it wrong.

I don't play the politics of envy and it isn't us against them. The stats I cited came from the IRS and just like your account book at the end of the year numbers don't lie.
Follow the link to the IRS. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls
I believe some political party has been feeding you a line. Now ask yourself why would a political party misrepresent the truth? Political gain and the acquisition of power perhaps?

Edward

[John T.]

I believe some political party has been feeding you a line. Now ask yourself why would a political party misrepresent the truth? Political gain and the acquisition of power perhaps?

Edward------------------------------------------------------

Ed thats right. Both major parties lines operate like that. I tend to vote Party lines at times because it takes a "Party" to get what you want done. I also have strayed from that and voted seperately. I know Political people as alot do and I understand why they do what they do but alot of times I can get disgusted by it all. I guess you have to be a special breed of person to play the political game. Which is you have to tell people what they want to hear whether its true or not...

[Ron Musgraves]

Originally Posted by Edward

Exactly!
Shame on us for creating a class of government dependent people. As long as you can get it for free here why fix the problems back home in your own country.

Ron how many people starve to death each year in Latin American countries? You make it sound like if we don't feed them they will starve to death in a month. I believe that to be an exaggeration of the conditions these people face in order to gain sympathy for your position. When I checked the stats on hunger in South America they came out moderately low or extremely low. The world hunger problem: Countries affected by hunger
I wonder what the hunger rating for our founding fathers would have been while they struggled to fix the problems facing this country? Again who will solve the problems in south America if their hard working people leave? I think we are doing those countries a disservice by depleting these countries of hard working people that could make a difference back home.

Edward

I was talking about american Babies or mexican nationals. Who do you thinks gettting the benis?

Ed, I hate to tell your missing this. Like most

[Edward]

Originally Posted by Ron Musgraves

I was talking about american Babies or mexican nationals. Who do you thinks gettting the benis?

Ed, I hate to tell your missing this. Like most

Ron
I know this may seem harsh but in this country poverty is a self induced condition. My father raised a family with five children on a 6th grade education. We didn't ask for any assistance from the government and we didn't miss any meals. I get so tired of this we got to help them mentality. No we don't have to help them we need to make them help their self. This dependence of the government mentality is diametrically apposed to what our founding fathers created.

Edward

[Ron Musgraves]

Ed, I see theres no winning this one.
I'll say help the children with food money and anything we can give them.

Cant change my mind on this one.

people looking for a better life is not a crime.

[John T.]

Originally Posted by Ron Musgraves

Ed, I see theres no winning this one.
I'll say help the children with food money and anything we can give them.

Cant change my mind on this one.

people looking for a better life is not a crime.

I'm with you Ron on the above point..Other countries leave this kids to starve and have to sell themselves for *** for them to survive. Not here not ever. Ed is missing the point or he is just not getting it.

[HotShot]

Originally Posted by Edward

Ron
I know this may seem harsh but in this country poverty is a self induced condition. My father raised a family with five children on a 6th grade education. We didn't ask for any assistance from the government and we didn't miss any meals. I get so tired of this we got to help them mentality. No we don't have to help them we need to make them help their self. This dependence of the government mentality is diametrically apposed to what our founding fathers created.

Edward

That's beautiful dude...great post.

Nobody is looking to starve any kids, not even us big bad conservatives. All we're saying is follow the rules to come to our country. Yes, it is the best country in the world! Yes, I would be trying to get here if I was from another country as well! I think YOU guys are missing our point as much as we're missing your point....there is a legal way to enter our country, do it. We welcome you with open arms. You break the laws, then you deserve the punishment that goes along with it.