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[RPetry]

Russell,

I am not unfamiliar with linseed based, drying oil exterior wood stains. We have used your Wood Tux product on 4 different jobs, 2 PT SYP, 1 ipe', and 1 red mahogany. Just starting out, many years ago, I used Wolman's F&P for two straight years, mainly on PT, a linseed oil based stain. This year we did a cedar job with Armstrong-Clark, a combination of linseed oil and paraffinic oils.

In my experience, it takes much longer to correctly apply a drying oil stain. Contrary to your contention,

The less material you use the more profitable you will be and that has little to do with the "price" of your materials.

, the reality is the more sq. footage per hour stained, the more profitable you will be. Material price point agreed, as it is passed on to the customer.

Where the heck is Shane? That guy could spray more paraffinic Baker's Gray Away on fences than your 5 min. / 360 sq. ft. siding contractor. I can't, I'm getting too old!

But I disagree. Paraffinic oil stains are much faster and easier to apply correctly, certainly to softwoods which is the majority of work, than any drying linseed oil stain.

[MMI Enterprises]

Rick, I just don't see how you can validate what yer saying without making a mention of extensive backbrushing sometimes associated with the drying oil stains. Not only do some them hardly even require it but many have minimized that laborous act down to hardly anything by using big brushes, brooms, or pads.
Only thing I am left with to consider is weighing that act against the having to go open more buckets of paraffinic and applying it. Throw in labor associated with thirsty initial staining (thoroughly double coating/soaking) with some paraffinic and I am at a loss for words and way way behind. Only time I can imagine a possabe savings is for them repeats but even then.....
Please explain where all this extra time might be coming from with using a drying oil.

[RPetry]

Kevin,

My fault, Russell and others know that back brushing is standard for drying oils. At least in my experience, you have to lay down a fairly even coat of drying oil product to obtain an even finish.

With a first time job, the labor savings comes primarily on the vertical wood, which is the most time consuming. Softwood decks are the vast majority of our work, and probably for many others here. We spray with an HLVP designed for stains. We do not backbrush. Could care less how much paraffinic oil drips on the floor, runs down the posts, or streaks down the fasica. We do not worry about "puddles" on the horizontal handrail or underneath the ballustrade. Well engineered paraffinic oil stains have the ability to "even out". Sure the worker carries a 6" bristle brush to spread out when needed, but for most woods, its a blow and go.

The horizontal deck surface is another story. For a first time job, 2 separate applications of a paraffinic are required. You use a lot of stain. But application could not be faster than spraying water or using a 20" truck brush and an appropriate bucket.

For first time jobs, we usually spray with a Pump Tec HLVP to hit all the gaps, then use a 20" truck brush to lay on another application of oil. Very fast.

I will give it a toss up between linseed drying oils and paraffinic oils in labor the first time you service a new customer. Cost wise, the customer will certainly pay more for stain than using a linseed drying oil.

The real benefit comes in service. Maybe you are not there yet, but maintenance is the better margins and meat of the wood restoration business. Every two years. Does not matter in our climate, whether linseed or paraffinic. An inexpensive, shurflo applied bleach and soap mix to the wood. Hose rinse, or for customer perception, a dump tip on a dual wand.

The wood dries out fast as there is still oil in the wood. Fast, single app of oil and you are done. No stripping, no percarbs, no pressure.

If the wood gets too dark after 3 or 4 maintenance oilings, a simple percarb wash works well. Could not be simpler, quicker, and easier on both your labor costs and customer pocketbook.

[Russell Cissell]

Rick

I will not speak for others, but what I know is that experience replaces most of the back brushing over time. When you learn to read the wood you only have to back brush when you are "wrong" about what you read.

Additionally, most jobs require some combination of brushes, pads and sprayers. If every job were a fence, that would be one thing, but decks and homes need care too. This is true whether you are slinging a paraffinic or drying finish.


There is a world of difference between F&P and Wood-Tux. With all due respect, it took me about 40 or 50 decks before I would even say I was "good" with TWP when that was my product of choice.

Sure I could get the job done and make it look right, but it was not until I had enough experience that I could do it without thinking about it that I would say I "knew" the product. After applying the product for several years, it was a rarity that I had to back brush something because of an over application.

I respect that you have used Wood-Tux on 4 jobs. No doubt I appreciate the business. I am not saying you are wrong in anything you stated. Within your frame of reference it is certainly true or you wouldn't say it. All I am asking is that you are open to the concept that perhaps Wood-Tux, as a tool, takes a little longer to learn.

I have always said there is a learning curve with the product. I am sure that you were able to apply it with good results the first time. That is not the end of it. Spend a week with myself or someone who has used hundreds and hundreds of gallons and I promise you will see the same speed you are used to with your paraffin's.

There are difference in the application methods, but speed doesn't have to be one of them.
Also, drying stain does not mean it is linseed. There are many oils that can used to make wood finishes.

[MMI Enterprises]

Rick,
Yea I don't know all about that as it pertains to repeats cause when I do use paraffinic I treat it about same as drying type when both prepping and spraying. My actual staining time on most jobs is maybe only 25% of the time spent. I got to push the dogs out the way ya know..

[RPetry]

Russell,

Fair enough. Always wanted to get down to Beth 'n Rods or Ken Fenner's Pressure Pros to see 'em in action. Current business has always gotten in the way.

Yes, there are many drying oils aside from linseed. Tung and rosewood come to mind, a nightmare to strip. Fine for furniture, less than worthless for exterior wood.

There is a world of difference between F&P and Wood-Tux. With all due respect, it took me about 40 or 50 decks before I would even say I was "good" with TWP when that was my product of choice.

Yes. I assume your TWP was paraffinic. Different strokes. Contractors get use to things, we are no better or worse than human. We have been using paraffinic stain for 6, maybe 7 years. Talk about a hard sell. We know what we are doing, do it well, and keep our customers. At least most of them!

4 lousy jobs is nothing. Little stain, no dollars in your pocket. We are hooked, both line and sinker, to Ready Seal stain. Unless they really f' up, it is our business.

Learning curves are great for the up and comers. Go get 'em. We will probably cash out doing what we do.

[Russell Cissell]

Rick

You got me laughing with that one. I am a salesman by nature. I often wonder if it's because I have the word "Sell" in my name twice and have heard it hundreds of thousands of times in my life.

That being said, I know better than to try to sell you product. Besides, if I were to try something like that I would probably just send you a couple pails of our parafinnic stain not argue you into it on a BBS.

I also recognize that you know your business and understand what you're talking about. That makes "debating" you fun.

TWP was not a paraffinic. I used the 100 series and specifically the cedar 101. It was/is a beautifully clean alkyd formula with transoxide pigment.

Now back to the debate. I believe that you asserted a 50/50 blend of Wood-Tux Brown Sugar and Western Cedar resulted in the most beautiful finish you have ever seen on Ipe.

I present for your reconsideration Wood-Tux Amaretto.
(Pictures supplied by Celeste G. at Carolina Pro Wash)

[plainpainter]

The thing I like about woodtux compared to other 'drying' stains - is that I can fully load the wood with one pass. Other stains even the drying ones were so thin - you had to apply two coats just to fill the wood up. Parafinnic stains to me are like applying water - I am reading what Rick is typing about how he applies it, and it just simply amazes me that you can throw it on like that - I never slung stain like that around! I personally do not see the longevity of parafinnic even on softwoods. My own deck has timber oil on pressure treated - and as much as I love it - it definitely isn't something that could go 2 years!

[RPetry]

Originally Posted by plainpainter

... Parafinnic stains to me are like applying water - I am reading what Rick is typing about how he applies it, and it just simply amazes me that you can throw it on like that - I never slung stain like that around! I personally do not see the longevity of parafinnic even on softwoods. My own deck has timber oil on pressure treated - and as much as I love it - it definitely isn't something that could go 2 years!

Daniel,

Due to the "forgiving" nature of paraffinic stains, they can be applied to softwoods very quickly. No lapping, drip marks or heavy spots, the stain just has a way of automagically evening out in color. The downside is for a first time service, you need to put 2 separate applications on the deck floor and you use a lot of stain.

The real upside is maintenance. Quick bleach-soap clean, one app. of oil on the horizontal wood, and you are done. Typically use ~ 60% of the amount of stain as compared to the first time restoration.

We have never had to re-service a RS softwood deck after a year. If the wood is prepped correctly, at low moisture content, and you use enough stain, 2 yrs. lifetime is normal and we have many jobs that do not need maintenance until the 3 yr. mark.

A couple of pics on applying. Chris is brushing a 2nd app. into the wood with a lg. bucket and 20" truck brush. The other pic shows the HLVP pump, where I am spraying the 1st app. of oil into the lower deck. No backbrushing. Goes fast.

[Russell Cissell]

Rick

Amaretto?

[plainpainter]

Looks beautiful Rick - I will post pics of my deck soon - I did two applications in the fall. Although I let a month go by between apps - and I think I overdid it when I cleaned prior to the second application. That being said - the deck is real thirsty almost a year later for another maintenance coat - perhaps after this year it can go 2 years perhaps?

[RPetry]

Originally Posted by Russell Cissell

Rick

Amaretto?

Russell,

Have to hand it to you, that Amaretto is a real nice color on ipe'. Appropriately named, kind of a coffee and cream look. A bit light with just a touch of yellow, but very attractive and unique.

Think it is just my taste, but I tend to like the reddish-browns on exterior wood, including ipe'. Here is a pic of 50/50 brown sugar/western cedar Wood Tux on ipe'.

Hey, maybe Beth can post the pictures and set up a opinion poll!

[RogerG]

Here are a few more of the Amaretto color - different times of day, sun, shadows, etc:

[Beth n Rod]

Originally Posted by RogerG

Here are a few more of the Amaretto color - different times of day, sun, shadows, etc:

....deck looks familiar....I'm a sucker for tropical plants.
Beth

[cleanhoods]

registered as well would like to try sample of the hd-80 as well thank you