I Was Wrong

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

I was under the mistaken assumption the Sodium Hypochlorite cleaned better at LOWER PH's.
This is incorrect http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/sfj/58/8/465/_pdf
Thank you Dan Tambasco DBA PlainPainter for pointing this out to me
Cleaning of Sodium Hypochlorite is better at HIGH Ph, but Disinfection is better at lower ph's.
This does not really effect Apple Sauce, just MY understanding of WHY it works.
Apple Sauce is fixing to get improved anyway.
We have been testing something that might make Apple Sauce "obsolete"
This new sauce might or might not make roofs stay clean as long as Apple Sauce, but from alll feedback we are getting, it cleans as well, and most say better.
And, staying clean LONGER dont seem as important to many of you as it does to me
It is a LOT easier to make, no more mixing powders of any kind.
Almost too simple to be true.

I am interested in Beta Testers before we put it out there.
If you are a working roof cleaner, all you have to do is ask.
Even Local Competitors can participate, WTF

[squirtgun]

I'm sure you'll be able to enlist the same group of beta testers that bought into the borax craze.
You know the guys who have been buying it in bulk and adding cost to their bottom line because you crusaded to discredit those who use sodium hypochlorite and water with a liquid detergent.All the while bashing a guy(Don Phelps) who helped many of the roof cleaners on these sites get started because you felt it was only being done as a way to sell equipment.Oh and I haven't forgot the bashing you gave me on PWI,it may be in the past,but certainly not forgotten.
I've been trying to play nice with others,but it's not in me to keep sitting back while people are asked to become someone else's lab rats.

[plainpainter]

Hey Chris - I would love to help. I've only criticized you in the past - because I like you - all info that gets said here, stays here. I don't want you putting your foot in your mouth when it comes to customers.


Scott - in Chris' defense, the borax is responsible for the effects he is talking about - it is an herbicide that only attacks certain things - yet is harmless to surrounding vegetation within reason. I think Chris is pushing the boundary of what chems can do. It ain't easy figuring this stuff out.

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

I'm sure you'll be able to enlist the same group of beta testers that bought into the borax craze.
You know the guys who have been buying it in bulk and adding cost to their bottom line because you crusaded to discredit those who use sodium hypochlorite and water with a liquid detergent.All the while bashing a guy(Don Phelps) who helped many of the roof cleaners on these sites get started because you felt it was only being done as a way to sell equipment.Oh and I haven't forgot the bashing you gave me on PWI,it may be in the past,but certainly not forgotten.
I've been trying to play nice with others,but it's not in me to keep sitting back while people are asked to become someone else's lab rats.

And I have NOT forgotten how you Threatened to "Come down to Tampa with a Baseball Bat" and "take care Of Business" either Squirt Gun.
Beta testing is VOLUNTARY, no one is twisting anyones arm, so what Business is it of yours anyway ?

[MMI Enterprises]

Dude..since it is generically accepted that the term cleaning can involve first killing all the nasty stuff and then rinsing it I have no idea why yer attempting a departure. Btw, If not mistaken I believe I had read some good info that said heat plays a role between the disinfection power versus ?xxx? (some kind of power) also. Forget now but I don't think it was like whitening power or something related to aesthetics since the info was by a doctor or scientist and the info was addressing sterilization in general in hospital situations.. oh yea steriization power .. haha
Anyways.. here is another example of about how lower ph changes things up:
Vinegar increases killing power of bleach

ps- pretty sure some of us maybe even you yourself Chris touched on the disinfection thing maybe about a year ago or so. Didn't seem important then.. why
now?... here some info ya light like Chris- McGill Laboratory Biosafety Manual - Sterilization and Disinfection in the Laboratory

[squirtgun]

Because this

Making "Apple Sauce" Roof Cleaning Mixture

contradicts this

I Was Wrong - Pressure Washing Institute

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Because this

Making "Apple Sauce" Roof Cleaning Mixture

contradicts this

I Was Wrong - Pressure Washing Institute

Squirt Gun, no it does not.
Apple Sauce still works, it is just MY understanding of WHY it works that has changed.

[MMI Enterprises]

Scott,

What part contradicts?

[Don Phelps]

There is a lot to be learned from this thread........

[David Grimes]

Hope I'm not sticking my nose into a hornet's nest but...

Scott (my Worth county neighbor): I have had it in my mind that lower pH would result in better cleaning because in my experience with SH in pool applications, the pH is kept artificially a touch higher (7.4 to7.6) than normal (7.0) just because the suspended chlorine will not gas out as fast as it does at lower pH. Not that the chlorine works better at a certain pH, just that it stays there longer.

So my thinking was that on roofs the lower pH would release a little more gas for the short duration between application and rinse. Sodium Hypochlorite pH at about 11.0, Borax at 9.5, TSP has a higher pH as well.

With all three of the sauce chems having high pH, is there any merit in buffering the pH down to the 7 range ? Will it still clean well ? I know plants would appreciate it.

I've never tested our mix for pH level. I assume it is 8 or more, but just guessing.

So I take it that Chris is just trying to better his understanding of something that we all know works well, so that maybe it can work the same for less, or better for the same amount, who knows?

I've played around a good bit with the sauce ingredients and strengths to form my own opinions, but there's no denying that the sauce works.

Apple Sauce Variations Rule #1: In a pinch, any ingredient may be left out of the recipe as long as it's neither water nor SH. Can't argue with that !

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Yes, any ingredient can be left out of the sauce.
Many just use SH and water alone,, no surfactant, no TSP, no Borax, etc, etc.
Whatever someone uses is up to them.
Then there are some of us who like to "push the cleaning art" as high as we can.

It is true that in a Swimming Pool a lower ph is better.
That is because we are trying to disinfect and sanitize, NOT clean anything.
For cleaning, as I recently found out, we want a HIGH Ph.

Apple Sauce still works, it is only MY understanding of why it does that has changed.

Back when my Dad and I raced Circle Track, we ground our cylinder heads, roughed em up.
We THOUGHT it increased flow, and made more horsepower.
Turns out flow bench testing showed our grinding increased mixture velocity, thus TORQUE was increased.
The increased Torque allowed us to come out of a corner faster, and we won several races this way.
The proof is in the performance, not always in the understanding of WHY the performance was increased.

[David Grimes]

One time that we did only use water and SH, the hang time on the roof was a good bit less. Also, no white sudsing during application or rinse. We prefer to use all of the ingredients.

[plainpainter]

Chris - my understanding of how bleach works has increased as well. And it supports my observation of when I was adding Bob's Gutter Grenade F-13 to my house washing mixes - it really increased the cleaning power! The ingredient to Bob's mix is Potassium hydroxide - a caustic!

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

One time that we did only use water and SH, the hang time on the roof was a good bit less. Also, no white sudsing during application or rinse. We prefer to use all of the ingredients.

Agreed David, the white sudsing is from the TSP and the Borax.
You can SEE their effects during cleaning.'
What you Can't see is how the Borax helps it stay cleaner longer.
Try the Isopropyl alcohol/ surfactant mixture and see what you think ?
After all the Beta testers report their findings, and if they are all pretty positive, I will list it alongside Apple Sauce as an alternative.

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Chris - my understanding of how bleach works has increased as well. And it supports my observation of when I was adding Bob's Gutter Grenade F-13 to my house washing mixes - it really increased the cleaning power! The ingredient to Bob's mix is Potassium hydroxide - a caustic!

Great Danny, and thank you for "sticking to your guns" during our chemical discussions.
I have learned a lot of new stuff as well.

We have used sodium hydroxide sometimes in our Tile Roof Cleaning mix, with TSP.
Actually, Sodium hydroxide, hypochlorite, and TSP was a cleaning mix handed down from those who cleaned before us.
It was a popular all purpose mix.
This discovery of cleaning solutions containing hypochlorite being more effective at higher PH opens a LOT of possibilities!
Is Potassium Hydroxide in Liquid form, like Sodium Hydroxide ?
Sodium Metasilicate and TSP are both real alkaline.
Very interesting .....