Armstrong Clark

[bigchaz]

I don't want to get to into messing with a special bakers blend or twp. From what I understand TWP 100 will be gone next year when they switch the VOC regulations to California standard. I cant help but imagine Bakers will probably have the same fate. Any idea what percent solvent they have? Also ive had great sucess only offering two woodtux colors so far. I dont want to get too deep into dealing with people who want me to use a certain product simply because it has a color they like. I think with AC I can keep it to two brands and simply tell the customer I have to use AC because the deck is so much older.

Also with AC compared to TWP theres no risk of it getting reformulated since they only use 25 percent solvent. This even means you could probably still thin with mineral spirits for fence jobs or a more transparent coverage

Ive also recently used woodrich timberoil with a top coat of woodtux. Thats gets your paraffins in the wood with the longevity of woodtux on top to seal it in.

[RPetry]

Jason,

Armstrong-Clark stains are 50% linseed oil, 50% paraffinic oil from what I have been told. Baker's is I think clay pigment but 100% paraffinic oil. But not VOC compliant in the 7 or 8 states on the East coast and Ca..

Do know that TWP at least use to make a 100% paraffinic oil stain, Amteco based, but again not available due to VOC regs. here on the East Coast.

Hmmm... And who does that leave?

[Beth n Rod]

Originally Posted by bigchaz

I don't want to get to into messing with a special bakers blend or twp. From what I understand TWP 100 will be gone next year when they switch the VOC regulations to California standard. Correct I cant help but imagine Bakers will probably have the same fate. Correct Any idea what percent solvent they have? Also ive had great sucess only offering two woodtux colors so far. I dont want to get too deep into dealing with people who want me to use a certain product simply because it has a color they like. I think with AC I can keep it to two brands and simply tell the customer I have to use AC because the deck is so much older.

Also with AC compared to TWP theres no risk of it getting reformulated since they only use 25 percent solvent. This even means you could probably still thin with mineral spirits for fence jobs or a more transparent coverage

Ive also recently used woodrich timberoil with a top coat of woodtux. Thats gets your paraffins in the wood with the longevity of woodtux on top to seal it in. Bingo!

It doesn't have to be one or the other at all...
Beth

p.s. for those who doubt, don't, the VOC laws are going to be NATIONWIDE in the very near future.....2009 I believe is the compliant year....

[James]

Solid content is important for non drying oils because it rebulks the wood fibers. You will see this less when you have a drying oil mixed with a NDO( nondryingoil). I think Bakers is 60 to 65% solids. RS 85%. TWP has a94% down to a 40 with thear series. AC is 50% NDO and 25% drying oil ( linseed).

Some of these numbers maybe a % off .

[YVPW]

Baker's uses copper pigment. Baker's is 100% paraffin oil but it has a great spread rate. I have mixed it with other stuff to get curing properties. The deck blend has less overall solids if you count oil as a solid, but it will last longer on a deck. It also looks better since there isn't so much oil to turn the wood dark. Mainly to be used on newer wood.

One thing stain manufacturers can do is ship the contractors the concentrate and let us add our on MS. I know of at least one company doing that. I have tested one of those products, but the product didn't have any parrafin oil in it and I didn't like it, although they can ship you the oil too. Too much trouble doing all that mixing when there's already manufacturers that have those type of products made up and ready to be shipped. But as you all said in the near future that may have to be done if that is the type of stain one desires since they will be changing the VOC laws.

A lot of the manufacturers count parrafin oil as a solid, which it is since it doesn't evaporate. While others like Russell count solids in Wood Tux as pigment and resin. Both of these are definitely important numbers. They effect the look of the stain, longevity and the replenishment of oil to wood. Ready Seal and Timber Oil both have to be high in the parrafin oil & pigment solids. Both are great at restoring wood.

Charlie, using both of those stains together is a great combination. It's just a hassle to change products during the job or having to come back and stain later with Wood Tux. IMO the best thing to do is use a stain with the combination of both on older wood. Which I'm sure that's why you've considered AC. I think you will like it.

[bigchaz]

Where have you been all my life?


geez great post

[RPetry]

Originally Posted by YVPW

Baker's uses copper pigment. ...

Jason,

That is interesting. Have not heard of semi-trans stain manufacturers using copper for pigment. Most common is iron oxides or clays from what I know. There must be other pigments, care to comment on benefits or otherwise of copper?

[plainpainter]

Originally Posted by Beth n Rod

It doesn't have to be one or the other at all...
Beth

p.s. for those who doubt, don't, the VOC laws are going to be NATIONWIDE in the very near future.....2009 I believe is the compliant year....

Funny, Beth, how a local paint company in the north east where the limit is 350g/liter of VOC's manufactures a product that emits 600g/liter - and does it legally! All those VOC laws are a just a ruse to make smaller companies suffer. If anyone is worried about VOC laws - don't be, I don't care if it's 2009, 2019 - there will always be oil based VOC emitting products that you can buy in one form or another. Perfect example - companies rename their 'primers' to 'sealers' - and their products have become 100% exempt from these up an coming VOC laws - or they pay levies that smaller companies can't afford. Krikes - I can even get lead based oil paint if I really wanted too. You just have to know where to look.

[YVPW]

Rick, I have never heard of it either. That's one question I would like to know. The pigment at the bottom of a bucket of Gray Away feels like clay, maybe it's a blend? I love the buckets that Baker's comes in. I wish all stain manufacturers used them. I've did a search on copper pigment trying to find some answers in the past. Maybe Ken, Daniel or Jim has some insight on it. Only thing that has came up in searches is old copper pigmented paint, how that copper has been used for 100's of years.

All I've ever heard is that transoxide's are the best, but side by side with AC the Baker's doesn't look any different. Maybe with UV's the transoxide's are better at least that's what they say.

[RPetry]

For those that may be interested, I'll pass along an email I received from Jake Clark of Armstrong-Clark. Note A/C is Armstrong-Clark Company.

Rick,

The pleasure was mine as well. I will do my best to summarize A/C formulas and their logic.

A/C formulas have three components: drying oils (37%) , nondrying oils (38%) and solvent (25%).

Our drying oil is made with linseed oil as it's main component. Within the dry side of the formula we include adequate fungicide, transparent oxide pigments, some natural pigments, dryers, water repellants and several proprietary components. This dry side of the formula is designed to stay on or just inside the wood.

The nondrying oils are mainly paraffinic. Since paraffinic oil is lighter than water and can lift with the rain, we fortify the oil with additives that return the paraffin and increase the weight. These nondrying oils completely separate from the drying oils and soak deep into the wood to restore lost natural oils and to dramatically increase the useful life of the wood.

The solvent is added to increase the penetrating power of the oils. The solvent allows the drying and nondrying oils to penetrate into the wood fibers and return to their original viscosity for increased longevity.
This approach to formulation has allowed our stains to be applied to virtually any wood substrate, from hard woods, to pressure treated soft woods, to T111.

Rick, I hope this helps and if I can answer any questions, my direct lines are open to all.

Sincerely Yours,

Jake

1 209 588 1160 office
1 209 541 6579 cell

www.armclark.com

Guess that is the bottom line, from the horse's mouth. Now, who can get me 2 camels in Luxor, Egypt in January?

[YVPW]

Thanks Charlie....I think you're referring to me

I have visited this website almost everyday for 2 1/2 years. I feel like I know most on here, even though I don't post much. I've always enjoyed reading these forums. Thanks Beth & Rod and everyone who supports the site.

[YVPW]

Thanks for sharing that Rick

Makes me like the stain even more.

[RPetry]

Jason,

You are welcome. Hope others benefit. A-C may be a real new player in stains. We need one.

But seriously, anyone have a line on camels?

[bigchaz]

As you can tell from his email to Rick, Mr Clark has been a great help to people interested in the stain. He's excited about this industry and his availability to speak to directly to contractors seems to show his company's dedication to customer service.

Apparently the term is "gun shy" but i think AC realizes that not everyone is going to jump 100 percent behind the stain until the field tests come through. But they obviously are confident in the product and even sent me more samples to do some additional work with.

Ive got a deck slated for July 7th with Armstrong Clark Cedartone and ill be sure to post my thoughts. Id appreciate y'all getting some samples and letting me know how it works out for you. The more perspectives, the better for people to decide

[CarolinaProWash]

We're putting it down on two decks in the mountains the week of July 7th as well Charlie. This one gets full sun for a nice part of the day with the side areas fully shaded. One new wood, one ancient wood. Looks like a great test subject